Jenny L.M (2024-08-19 09:52:11), category: shamanism

I’m sorry about my questions coming across stupid, but I really need to know how to deal with this. I don’t want nothing to do with it either. I’ve been stalling for a long time, I have been self medicating to keep things at arms length. Didn’t help. I don’t want everything I have worked hard for to be flushed down the toilet because of the spirits. I know I can’t just tell them to go, but I’m not the right person to go down that path.

I guess I’m asking for advice.

Ove (2024-08-19 12:08:54, updated 2024-08-19 12:24:17)

I don’t know enough about your situation, like what you’ve worked so hard for, to give you specific advice. But in general, if you mean things like a career, there’s probably no reason you can’t do both. After all, in most places that matter, discrimination based on religion is illegal, so you can’t be fired for this.

I certainly don’t plan to end my own professional career anytime soon. In fact, having a separate professional career means I don’t need to make money from any spiritual work I might want to do on the side. I can do healing work completely for free, which is good because it means I can afford to be choosy about who I want to work with, and it makes me more trustworthy for those who do seek my help, since they can be sure I’m not trying to scam anyone.

But in the end, I think the most important thing to do is to listen to your heart. Sometimes following it is risky, but ask yourself: if you’re given one chance at happiness, and you don’t go for it, would the life you’d be left with really be worth living? Sometimes you just have to be willing to take some chances. And if you’ve got good spirits with you, they’ll see to it that you don’t have to lose whatever really matters to you.

If you need more specific advice, you should probably contact me privately, with my contact form.

Jenny L.M. (2024-08-17 16:30:33), category: shamanism

Did you ever feel the weight of it? Did it haunt you or was it merely a case of scientific curiosity?

Ove (2024-08-18 16:31:59)

If I didn’t feel the weight of it, I wouldn’t have bothered with it. After all, I’ve had no desire for this, not even out of curiosity. But spirits as powerful as those I apparently have, don’t come around for no reason. So now I have a long path to take, and a difficult job to do, and I have to figure out how to do it. But I can’t just walk away.

Jenny L.M. (2024-08-17 14:48:23), category: shamanism

I’m sorry for coming across as a little slow, but I didn’t really understand what your experience with the trance was. Was it like you had a longing for letting it get to you before you started participating in the shamanic program? Did you ever want to just let go and do it without the guidance of a shaman?

Ove (2024-08-17 16:19:37)

No. I’ve never had any desire for any of this.

Jenny L.M. (2024-08-17 11:09:47), category: shamanism

In Sámi folklore there’s a lot of potential downsides of shamanism displayed, so I agree with you that nobody should venture into shamanism without being guided by a shaman.

If you would allow me to be straightforward, have you tried, or rather considered, letting the trance embrace you? If so, have you been under the supervision of a shaman. If not, are you having a hard time suppressing the “urge” to go there all alone?

Ove (2024-08-17 12:23:27)

Of course. I’m in fact a graduate of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies’ “Three Year Program of Advanced Initiations in Shamanism and Shamanic Healing”. I noticed that over time, both the other participants and the instructor started treating me as one of the participants with the strongest spirits. However, while I learned a number of interesting shamanic techniques, the program did not really answer the questions I was most interested in. But it was always clear I still have a path ahead, and presumably this includes doing my own research about some things.

Jenny L.M. (2024-08-16 15:44:38), category: shamanism

This might be a dumb question, but does the shamans themselves have an understanding of the foundations of their work? I’m asking this because of your example with driving a car, and what your stance about not getting involved with shamanism without being under supervision of a shaman.

Ove (2024-08-16 18:32:15)

In general, no, at least not in the sense I’m interested in. Shamans function as conduits between the physical world and the spirit world. To open the channel, most shamans have to get into a trance in some way, but most of the actual work is done by the shaman’s helping spirits. The shamans just need to follow the instructions of their helping spirits, and do not need to know what that does. Over time shamans will of course learn what works best for them, ways to get into deep trance, best practices, how to deal with various issues, which spirits can do what, etc, but they don’t need to know the physical mechanisms behind it, or what spirits actually are.

But it’s still not a good idea to try it without the guidance of an experienced shaman. Attempting to become a conduit without guidance and spiritual protection opens you up to various forms of danger, including things like traumas, mental issues (schizophrenia etc), and even bodily harm in some cases.

Jenny L. M (2024-08-10 13:07:00), category: shamanism

You’re saying that you’re not sure about how this works. Is it possible that your angle is skewed? You’re highlighting your view by using the combustion process of an engine as a model. I know that’s just a way of simplifying your train of thought, but are you sure that your way of trying to understand shamanism is nothing but a Western way of thinking?

Ove (2024-08-10 19:28:04, updated 2024-08-10 19:33:38)

First: That’s not a model, not at all. Using a car engine as a model for this would be insane. And it’s not a simplification, either. I only meant it for what I said: a comparison. Anyway, when it comes to your main question, my response would be: Perhaps, but what difference does it make? Would the answer change anything? I’d say it wouldn’t, for at least two reasons:

1. It doesn’t change the problem. Regardless of why, the fact remains I’m still trying to figure out how this works, and this would not change what it would take to understand how it works.
2. “Thinking” does not determine reality. All these ways of thinking, Eastern and Western, whatever, exist on the same world, Earth. Thus, they must share the same underlying reality, even though you can of course approach this reality in many different ways — and usually have to, because reality can be a rather tricky thing. In fact, there’s not even a standard Western thinking. Here’s a breakdown of the most important Western ways of thinking I know of:
• The materialistic, rather “apatheistic” way of life (not caring about whether there’s a God or not). In this, I include atheists, agnostics, and even many Christians. The only deity actually worshipped, is Mammon (aka money, for those who don’t know). Very science-based otherwise, and thus with a mostly reasonable (but not great) understanding of the material side of reality.
• Active Christianity, i.e., genuinely worshipping and seeking spiritual guidance. Does not acknowledge any other spirits than the one god, and rejects any reality that would contradict their faith. Thus, generally poor understanding of both the material and spiritual side of reality.
• New Age and other forms of paganism (e.g. Wicca) and shamanism. Acknowledges spirits and their power (although attempted explananations may be ad hoc and even contradictory), but tends to have poor understanding of the material side of reality.

And of course, there’s also not a standard Eastern way of thinking, either, although many Eastern approaches have a strong focus on the spiritual self in various ways, in particular about how to develop and improve yourself within some framework (sometimes with the aim of transcending ordinary physical limitations, but usually it’s more about becoming a good person). They acknowledge the existence of spirits without bodies, but don’t really explain why they have power over anything in the material world.

Notice how there’s no approach that really tries to understand what’s between the material and the spiritual world? I’m not aware of anyone who really knows what’s there. None of the common ways of thought seems to address how this works, neither Eastern nor Western. So, when that’s the goal (and it is for me), does it really make a difference where you come from? I know where I want to go, and I know that to get there, I have to seek truth, and not be satisfied with anything less.

Kelly (2024-07-05 17:53:08), category: shamanism

You gonna update your Shamanism section anytime soon? What you are discerning about the subject is interesting.

Yours sincerely,

Kelly Rodriguez

Ove (2024-07-06 16:19:19, updated 2024-07-06 17:06:51)

The main problem I’ve had with doing that, is that I strive to be educational, first explaining the fundamentals of how things work, and then build up to more complex things. However, nobody I’ve met really knows why these things work. They often do have observable effects, but the technical mechanisms, as well as the frameworks which they might fit into, are unknown. There’s no shortage of ideas, but there’s definitely a shortage of actual technical understanding. You could compare it to driving a car: if someone (like the spirits) give you one, you can of course drive it without understanding how the engine works. But I want to be able to explain how the engine works, and I want my explanation to be as bullshit-free as possible. For example, I will not use New-Age-style buzzwords like “vibrations” or “energies” if I can’t explain precisely what exactly they mean, and that whatever they’re referring to actually exists. I suppose there are some pieces of the puzzle I do have some ideas about, and perhaps could write a few words about, but I don’t know yet exactly how it all fits together. (Anyone who thinks they might be able to help with that, feel free to contact me.)

Of course, it would still be possible to write about how to “drive” instead, i.e., about the practices of shamanism. However, I don’t really like that idea either, because, for your own safety, shamanism should generally only be learned under the supervision of another shaman. Besides, there are many resources and courses available. And I might also myself be willing to give a free crash course to anyone I like enough. (Again, anyone who’d like to give that a shot should feel free to contact me.)

Granted, there are some concepts which could be useful for non-shamans to know about, such as power animals and whatnot, but they’re very far away from a Western understanding of how the world works, and thus hard to explain properly. So I just don’t feel very comfortable writing about the practice of shamanism before I understand the mechanisms of why it works myself. I hope to gain enough insight to do that soon, though I might need help from others to get there.

Jenny L. M. (2022-05-06 16:16:28), category: shamanism

Mr Kaaven,

You say that it is a curse being alone. Like what you say about yourself, I’ve been different myself through my entire life so far. I have been mitigating my situation with pretending. From early childhood I realized that my ways wasn’t like the others. I pretended my way to peer acceptance. In retrospect I consider that solution suboptimal. Being part of a group where the others have mindsets that is incompatible with your own mindset is taking a toll. But I was the only person who had the capability to adjust.

I’m not that familiar with science, not to the extent you are, at least. I’m though familiar with the the term “confirmation bias” from my profession, and questioning hypothesis is the main task of my work. I guess that’s sort of a scientific approach. Of course, doing it at work doesn’t mean I’m able to utilize it in another setting. Especially not in a setting which could potentially change my life.

I don’t dare questioning my hypothesis on shamanism, or more correctly, my calling. I’m scared to see it confirmed. Up until now I’ve created all sorts of explanations for what I have experienced. Law of large numbers, law of coincidence, law of luck, law of bad luck/Murphy’s law, law of hope, law of pessimism/optimism and so forth.

As of now I can create an illusion of it being a dream. A reality which doesn’t really exist. I’m writing a lot about it, and by writing it out I’m sort of keeping it under control. It’s just like something prosaic in my diaries.

The coin has two sides, though, and the two faced pleasures of living my current, mundane life really is wearing me out. From what you have said, I obviously have a picture of why, but I still have to ask why you chose to accept your calling.

Forgive me for being blunt, but was your then/now position an obstacle to acceptance of it, or did/does it allow venturing into perspectives like, say, shamanism?

Best regards,


Jenny

Ove (2022-05-19 07:57:21)

I didn’t say it’s a curse to be alone. I said it’s a curse to be different, even if you’re different in ways that are considered “good”. Being different tends to force you to be alone, for various reasons. The prejudices of other people being one of them, the lack of things in common being another. It doesn’t necessarily prevent social interaction, but if you’re around people for the wrong reasons, you’ll still always feel alone inside.

Anyway, it’s not clear what you’re asking. If by “position” you mean beliefs, then of course it was a bit of an obstacle, perhaps still is. If you mean principles, then I was always open to investigating these things (with a healthy dose of skepticism, of course) if I had reason to. I just didn’t have reason. And it might not have done much good if I had tried to investigate it earlier anyway, given that my knowledge was somewhat one-sided (and I knew it).

I think I already mostly answered the question of why I “accepted” the call (to the extent I actually have accepted it, anyway): because I wouldn’t mind a life where I get to help other people, and because not doing it would leave me with the mundane, depressing life I had before. If I refused, I would also have denied and suppressed part of me, and thus probably killed my chance at ever feeling whole and finding my happiness. And, once I started to learn the extent of what I’m being called to do, I realized that if I refused, I would probably also let down a great many people, whose fate might be a bit dark if I refused (I’d rather not go into detail here). Thus, if it was real, I would never be able to forgive myself if I refused. And if it wasn’t real, then nothing would stop me from going back to a regular life later, once I had seen enough to be able to draw such a conclusion. So, a rather easy choice in that regard. And from the point of view of my conscience and my heart, there was really no choice at all.

Now it’s “later”, and I still can’t draw the conclusion that it isn’t real. On the contrary, it does seem to be real, although I don’t quite understand the underlying mechanisms yet. It’s certainly very different to how ordinary physics works, but there’s of course also an interesting interaction with it, which might be interesting to explore once I’m in a position to do so. So I suppose my curiosity could also be considered a reason to investigate these things, if another one was needed. But my main reason is about the meaning of my life. Trying to help people.

Jenny L. M. (2022-05-05 01:47:10), category: shamanism

It’s interesting to learn that shamanism is considered something weirdos and crazy people are into. But it’s even more interesting to learn that there has been people practicing shamanism throughout the entire period that the church has been present. I have had many chats with people from northern Norway and northern Finland, but most of them, in fact almost every one of them, despite being, at least by definition, are to some extent what one would be labeling spiritual, have been unfamiliar with shamanism. Alternatively they would not share their knowledge about it with me.

I’m aware that the Sámi society is influenced by the church. As you have probably already guessed, I’m of Sámi descent myself. My grandmother was and my mother is a native speaker. Knowing them, and others of the Sámi society, the Christian faith is the only way. Of course, my knowledge regarding others is anecdotal, but it’s my impression that Christianity has strong armed the people into shunning what comes not from Scripture.

I don’t flash my connection to shamanism with my family and kinfolks. My mother flat out denies the existence of shamanism. My grandmother did too. Thing is, though, that my mothers brother, my uncle, was a man with powers. For some reason he chose me to succeed him. Maybe because I was like the only one in the family who shared his spiritual views. The downside is that I don’t want to succeed him. One thing is being interested in the subject, quite another story is living it. I am content with studying shamanism, but I’m no shaman and I’m not mentally capable of handling it. How are you maintaining sanity confronted with what the spirits are unloading onto yourself?

Best regards,

Jenny

Ove (2022-05-05 21:09:42, updated 2022-05-05 21:26:00)

How I’m maintaining sanity? Hmm, well, who says I am?

Okay, first of all, I’ve always been different, and basically alone, all my life anyway. There’s this thing with my relatively high intelligence, which in addition to the obvious like making you learn faster, understand things faster, and master things faster, it also just makes you think differently altogether. And as we know, different people often don’t play well together. And that’s before looking at all the other things I’ve since learned are unusual about me. Being different has always been a curse, I’ve always been alone, and I’ve always been afraid of going insane. After all, how can I be sure my view of the world is grounded in reality, without having trustworthy people around me who’s able to tell me when I am not? I’ve had to deal with this issue all my life.

Fortunately, the scientific method provides a way to do that, if you truly understand it. In particular, the method implies that you should try to always question your hypotheses, your own beliefs. What evidence do you have for what you believe, and more importantly, is there evidence for the opposite? Could you be wrong? Humans have a tendency to never ask themselves the last thing. In psychology this is called “confirmation bias”: people only look for evidence to prove they’re right, they never look for evidence to prove they’re wrong. This is one of the most important reasons for all the insanity in the world, so if you can develop awareness of this tendency, you can become a saner person. Furthermore, by understanding the scientific method, as well as common cognitive errors and statistical phenomena, I no longer needed to rely as much on having trustworthy people around me to have a reasonable shot at seeing the reality around me for what it really is.

When this spiritual thing happened, when I received “the call”, it was rather traumatic, as my entire world view changed. I actually wanted to believe I really was just going insane, it would have been easier. But I had no choice but to continue the scientific approach: question your beliefs. “This is evidence that your previous beliefs about spirits not being real is wrong, therefore you need to re-evaluate your beliefs.” (The alternative hypothesis of “I’m just insane” does not explain all parts of the evidence.) So I did, eventually, but I always maintain my scientific, skeptical mindset. Remember that a true skeptic questions, but does not deny. And a true scientist is open to all possibilities, regardless of his own personal beliefs.

Finally, there’s the issue of what insanity really is about. We’ve already established that everyone is irrational, at least to some degree or other. Insanity doesn’t have a precise definition, so it can be thought of as a word for when your irrationality reaches a point where the people around you will no longer accept it, perhaps because it’s harming them in some way. And if that’s the case, it’s possible to draw the following conclusion:

It doesn’t matter if you’re a little insane, as long it only helps others, and doesn’t bother or harm them. Nobody will care.

And what do you really want out of life? Would you prefer a rich life, filled with adventure, with helping other people, and making a difference, even if it’s a life with some risk and uncertainty? Or would you conform to whatever people around you say is “sane”, and have a relatively safe, but otherwise mundane life, where all you can become are whatever other people allow you to? And let me tell you, the latter kind of life made me clinically depressed for most of my life. Thus, choosing the former at least gives me a small shot at one day finding my happiness. Even if it might be a little insane.

Jenny L. M. (2022-04-28 04:01:00), category: shamanism

She’s a real humdinger of a woman, your sister. Such freedom of expression. Remarkable. She’s also honoring femininity without resorting to polarized sloganism. How did she get there?

I grew up in an evangelical setting, and the fear of spirituality outside the boundaries of the reverend or pastor’s preprinted doctrines was frowned upon. Sorcerers was of the devil, and shamanism was just considered mumbo jumbo. To put it simple, does the Sámi society consider sorcerers more like loose cannons not as trustworthy as shamans?

Do you think the establishment of a greater Sámi self consciousness is contributing to the acceptance of shamanism? From what I’ve learned shamanism has gotten a way more significant position compared to a couple of decades ago. To my knowledge the church did draw a line in the sand between the Sámi religion and Christianity for a long period of time. As of late I have read somewhere that the representatives of the church has been expressing a desire to share religious symbols with the Sámi religion. I think the name of one of these representatives is Tore Johnsen. Would this sit well with the Sámi people? Or would it be regarded as the church consuming a religion which is considered a threat to the monotheistic church?

I think one has to realize the hazards before one can think of not turning one’s home into an inescapable death trap. The tearing down the earth process is scattered across the earth and the pieces are hard to put together. Yes, organizations and people are screaming from the top of their lungs about what damages we are inflicting on ourselves, but the powers that be are committed to their own rationality, which doesn’t necessarily take into consideration the well being of our planet. Their first commandment is usually themselves staying in office. Besides, they have to make sure other nations ain’t taking advantage of them.

So yeah, I agree with your sentiment, or at least this is how I interpret your thinking, that rational behavior is connected, and limited, to the place of origin, which, inevitably, leads to questioning the entire existence of a universal rationality of mankind. Therefore I agree with you that rationality may not exist, alternatively we have yet to uncover its existence.

I will also add that there might could be some sort of human rationality present, granted that people had full access to the consequences of the ill doings, and was capable to comprehend it. Unfortunately, in my lifetime I haven’t seen much indicating such capabilities in mankind, which further supports your conclusion.

Ove (2022-04-28 16:36:00, updated 2022-04-28 16:51:52)

My sister’s story is for her to tell, I think. If you want to know, ask her.

Hmm, I suppose. Shamans were professionals, the ones appointed by the gods to dedicate their lives in service to their community. Sorcery was more for crooks. You could use sorcery to cast spells on people you didn’t like, or use the threat of such spells to rob people (although ways to defend yourself against this were also passed down through the generations). On the other hand, “wise old women” often also knew a few sorcery tricks for curing various things, but this was typically a bit hush-hush, as far as I know. Also, a spell for instantly stopping bleeding has always been fairly common knowledge among the Sámi. So, clearly, that kind of knowledge was sometimes useful. But the ones you’d call if all else fails, were of course the professionals, the shamans.

It’s not my impression that “acceptance of shamanism” has much to do with Sámi consciousness, no. Certainly not for shamanism across the world in general. But even for Sámi shamans, not really. Spiritual-minded Sámi are often Christians who shun shamanism, and to the mainstream Sámi, modern shamanism is just a fringe phenomenon with a few weird and crazy people, not to be taken seriously. And those left who do accept shamanism, were always there, I think.

Rather, I would attribute any increased acceptance of shamanism in Western civilization simply to the general progress of human rights and secularization. With greater separation of church and state, combined with ongoing enforcement of the religious freedoms enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Church no longer has the power it once had to crack down on other belief systems. So fewer people now grow up with Christianity, but some still seek answers to spiritual questions, and now nobody has the right to stop them from exploring the supernatural phenomena and magic associated with things like spiritual healing, witchcraft, and shamanism. It’s probably not any more complicated than that.

When it comes to what the Sámi people will accept, I don’t think I can really speak for them, especially since I’ve never heard of this Johnsen. But I’d certainly hope the Sámi would resist any efforts to allow their symbols to be appropriated by the Church, if that’s what you mean. They didn’t fight persecution and oppression for hundreds of years for nothing.

We do have the power to “realize the hazards” with our planet. That’s not a problem. We’ve been able to realize such hazards for thousands of years, long before “modern” civilization. And we’re certainly able to do it with modern technology. So there’s no escaping the question: How is it that humanity as a whole can be so stupid?

And no, I don’t think we can “uncover” rationality somewhere. It simply cannot exist, not even in theory. (People can’t have “full access to the consequences” either, that’s the mathematical and physical impossibility I mentioned before. With science you can predict some consequences, sometimes quite accurately, but you can never predict everything.) Not even God (for any definition of God) is, or can be, rational. It’s logically and spiritually impossible. Even the Christian Bible denies God’s rationality. For example, according to Genesis, God created stuff in seven days because he saw “it was good”, which is an emotional assessment, not a rational one. He also gets irrationally angry from time to time (like in the story of Noah’s ark, where God even admits to making an error because he was upset). But Christians like him anyway, because he’s generally loving and forgiving (i.e. God is a person driven by emotions). Also in other religions and beliefs which worshop some god, people will generally hold that “God is love”, which again, is an emotion. So again, rationality, in the usual sense people use the word, simply does not exist. It’s just a persistent delusion. Oh, the folly of man, thinking we can be rational when not even God is.